Is chivalry really dead?

[Kiri]

Lol. OMG RANDOM THREAD.

Actually, I'm just wondering because at the moment I'm sitting on the floor using my laptop, and my legs are killing me because sitting cross-legged is really not comfortable for me. D: These two guys are sitting on a bench across from me with a space inbetween them... but I felt weird at the idea of sitting down between them uninvited... I mean... if you leave a space between you and someone else... obviously you don't want to sit next to anyone. >_>;;

Now. Would it be too much for one of them to either get up... or just say, "Hey, you can sit here if you want"? I would do that if it was the other way around... it's not even chivalry... it's just plain politeness.

Lol so yeah. Gentlemen (and ladies!)... what do you think?

[Hatake Hiroshi]

I wish there were more gentlemen out there since I only know a few that actually know how to treat a women the way they ought to be treated. I'm tired of having the door slam back in my face when I'm leaving the classroom, and I'm tired of being ignored when I am clearly struggling with carrying something heavy. I live on the second floor of an apartment building that doesn't' have any elevators and is comprised of mostly guys. When I come back to school from a weekend at home, I have to lug a bunch of heavy bags up the stairs. The guys that live in the building are always just meandering around and they SEE me struggling with all this stuff, and you know what they do? They move out of the way. Wow, what jerks!

It can't all be pinned on the guys, though, so I'm gonna make a stab at my own gender. Women nowadays are so obsessed with being independent that they misinterpret the intentions of a man that's just being polite. If they open a door for you, or offer you their seat, or offer to help you carry something, it must automatically mean that they are hitting on you and want something more, OR they are impugning your independence and your ability to complete mundane, everyday tasks on your own. I'm all for independence, but come on! Just because a guy treats you nicely, it doesn't mean he thinks you're weak and can't handle things on your own. It just means he has some manners and has had at least somewhat of a proper upbringing. Sheesh.

In general, I think manners have been thrown to the dogs. No one has them anymore unless they want to get ahead, otherwise, it's ok the treat others like dirt.

[strangevisitor]

And that, right there, is one of the big problems with the world today. Everyone's 'me me me', not giving a rat's rear-end about the other inhabitants of the planet.

I'd like to think Chivalry isn't dead....but it's certainly in the ICU on life support. I do my best to keep it alive, but some days it seems like I'm the only one trying.

I've seen the occasional gentleman hold the door for a lady, but it's always an older guy who grew up knowing better. The people our age who do it are few and far between.

I've held plenty of doors for people. Especially at work. I offer to help carry particularly heavy items outside to their cars. One woman STILL thanks me, MONTHS later mind you, for carrying her milk to her car for her after hearing she'd had back surgery recently. The fact that this simple act had such an impact on her shows me how few and far between they've become.

*gets off the soapbox*

[Rasengan]

holding the door is usually a given, depending on how far the person is behind you
as for carrying a girls stuff i probably wouldnt offer to help unless it looks like they are carrying something really heavy or if i get asked to

[Kiri]

I think I've held the door for more guys than guys have held the door for me. And I always, always thank anyone who does so.

And OMG H₂, I know exactly what you mean. The girls who do that make me SO MAD!!! Try being thankful for someone being nice, rather than sniping at them! ARGH!!! *kiri-hulk smash!*

You're right, Joshy. I mean.. it's so refreshing whenever someone does something like that (if they ever do)....

Chivalry needs ... power thirst!

[Hatake Hiroshi]

Speaking of offering to carry something for a girl... I went to Publix to pick up a some groceries not long after posting in this thread, and after I'd checked out, the bag boy asked me if I needed any help carrying my things out to my car. It was only a few bags, including a heavy one with my milk and soda, but it wasn't anything I couldn't handle, so I told him, "No, I'm fine, but thank you," and gave him a smile to let him know I appreciated the gesture. That is how things should be.

[Tensei Kaori]

Half the problem, I think, is kids aren't learning manners anymore. At martial arts we teach our kids to say "yes, ma'am/sir" or "no, ma'am/sir" to adults. "Please" and "thank you" aren't even enforced in schools anymore (and I should know, working for one). Kids say "yeah" to their teachers without even making eye contact, and it's considered okay. Most kids aren't even taught proper table manners anymore, let alone how to open the door for someone or offer a seat when someone needs it.

If we want chivalry and manners back, we need to teach it to our kids. I try to do my part at work, but there's only so much one daycare worker can do when the stuff isn't even enforced at home. And since "sir" and "ma'am" aren't exactly common ways to address one's elders anymore, it's hard to start the kids saying it when I'm not sure how the parents might react.

[Sorien]

Hmm. The real topic at hand here, is it Chivalry we're talking about, or is it formalities. For the first part of things (up until K-chans post) I tend to agree with things about most of what has been said, however I would like to reinforce the idea behind lifting. Since there was the large feminist (no, I'm not throwing a downer on it or anything) and the liberation of the female sex (which, no, I don't have issues with. Please don't kill me. lol) some roles have become cloudy territory, the example given, with lifting. If we offer, are we offering to be kind, or are we offering so we can show our overwhelming strength and masculinity (male assuming possibly what the females mind is thinking).

I offer to take heavy furniture out to EVERYONES car regardless of gender to simply be polite (And no, we don't have tips in NZ folks, it's all done out of the goodness of my heart XD), and I hold the door for everyone too (assuming it's going to shut on someone), I even (Maz can back me up here, at Manos (Name of restaraunt)) on the special occasion move Danielle's (you all know her now ) chair in for her when she goes to sit down.

However. That being said, I don't ever see many other people showing the same common courtesy. I am still the minority. Which is sad. Which brings me to quite a few points really.

1) Title of the thread, is chivalry dead. I'm going to agree with Strangeman. It's very, very rare, and as he puts it: On life support.

2) Are common formalities dying out? Is this the product of wanting to be less formal? Should we return to proper english, where Mr. Sanders and Sir, and Madam are more common (I use those terms when I talk to customers as well, might I add) instead of "Hey man." Should we return to where they meant something, like the Japanese formalities of -sama, -san. Please and Thank you (as K-chan pointed out). What of the phrase "Respect your elders?". I don't see that too much these days either.

In a semi-conclusion, I don't think the situation with either are going to get better. The genders are misunderstood as it is. Men are still from Mars, and Women are from Venus. I don't know if, when I ask someone to take a box out to their car, whether they think I'm trying to prove myself as masculine being, or as a kind gesture. That's one possibility, in my case, that's the main one. In other cases, maybe people just don't care. Maybe it is dead. It can't be dead though, cos some men still are polite. I think that's conclusion enough.

[Kiri]

Yeah. It would be nice to see people using a little common courtesy. Sometimes I can't believe the way I hear them talking to one another, or the way I've been spoken to....

[Tensei Kaori]

Basically what I was trying to illustrate with my description of the fade of common courtesy is that if even typical manners are dying out, what can we expect to happen with chivalry? Typically speaking, someone who's been taught to behave with even some amount of politeness towards other human beings would be more likely to offer to help someone (not just a lady, but anyone at all) with heavy lifting, holding doors, etc. A gentleman who's been taught proper table manners is more likely to stand when a lady stands to leave the table for whatever reason (now there's one you almost never see anymore).

I have, however, been privileged enough to meet some true gentlemen in this day and age. It's really refreshing, considering the way most human beings (not just men, to be fair and honest) behave towards one another. I've also had fun seeing the reactions people have when I'm polite to them. I truly baffled a hospital security guard when I called him "sir", for example, and I can still remember the double-takes I got as a child when saying "thank you" to the clerks at MacDonald's. I also remember wondering why the heck they looked so surprised, when everyone knows it's just the polite thing to do. Lol.

[SeraphMazrakiel]

Politeness in general is dead.

Holding the door open is a given. If I'm going through a door, and there are men behind me, I'll push the door open for them and continue on my way. If a woman is coming through after me... that's when you crank out the polite pill and open it entirely for them, standing and letting them through. Also the same for anyone above a certain age -- my elders, so to speak, crank out the polite pill.

Young men can fend for themselves though! THEY HAVE NO MANNERS, THEY LEARN NOTHING.

I'd like to say I'm willing to help people do things... heavy lifting, carrying... you know, the 'masculine' stuff. And I am, but to be honest... I'd only go out of my way to do something difficult if they asked for help. I used to go out of my way to do something a little more difficult for people, and they give you a 'No". And I'm not talking a polite "No thanks, it's fine". It's that aforementioned "No, I don't fricking need your help, I can do it myself" sort of no.

Thus, I'm really only willing to help if asked. Or if they look like they're really struggling with it... and then, only if I can find the courage within to destroy the fear of hearing "You only want to help me because you expect some kind of reward, or you're going to steal my stuff!"

The good people, afraid to perform true good... because sometimes the people who need it accuse you of having ulterior motives.

haha.